2 Nephi 25:23 …for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
This may be one of the most well-known passages of LDS scripture, and one that speaks volumes about LDS doctrine and the LDS plan of salvation. Unfortunately, it is also one of the doctrines that serves to bring overwhelming feelings of condemnation upon Mormons.
Consider this. When have you ever felt like you have done all that you can do? As I look at every aspect of my life, I realize that I never reach that place of feeling like I’ve done all that I can do.
I consider myself to be a fairly good parent. I discipline my kids, encourage them, and love them as best I can. But have I done all I could do? No, I can always look back and see where I could have done more.
How about at the end of a workday? Have I ever left the office and thought, “Wow… I did everything I could possibly do today!” Nope, never. I could always look back and see where I could have improved.
How about in my relationship with my wife? I am blessed with a truly great marriage. But do I do all that I can do within that marriage? Certainly not.
What about serving God? As a Mormon… or even now as Biblical Christian… have I ever gotten through serving the Lord in some capacity and thought to myself, “Wow… I did everything I could possibly have done, and did it to my highest ability.”? Again, the answer has to be ‘no’. I can always find some way that I could have done more.
We are just not wired to ever feel like we’ve actually done all that we could have done. There might even be times in our lives where we HAVE actually done all we could do, but we don’t have the capacity to realize it.
I have had the opportunity to speak to so many people who feel completely condemned by the LDS church because they can’t do “all they can do”. The Bible tells us so clearly that it is for exactly that reason that Jesus Christ sacrificed His life for our sins… because we couldn’t do it on our own… we aren’t good enough. Jesus was the only one who could actually do all He could do. And He did.
The whole story of the Old Testament is God showing us that we cannot be good enough for heaven. The whole story of the New Testament is God resolving that by giving us His Son, who was good enough, to stand in our place.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
To a Latter-day Saint, this seems foolish. It doesn’t make sense that God would save us, apart from anything we did or didn’t do. It must be about temples, ordinances, obedience, priesthood, eternal marriages, baptism, missions, callings, repentance, and endowments. They think it must be so much more than just Jesus dying on a cross. Apparently the Apostle Paul was dealing with the same issue in the Corinthian church…
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
May 20, 2008 at 7:47 am |
So apparently even some Corinthians struggled, like some modern Mormons, to understand God’s grace, even without a misread/misquoted/misinterpreted verse from Nephi. You can read it “I’ve got to do everything I can or grace won’t save me,” or “even after everything I do, it’s only grace that can save me.” Those with faith in Christ read it the latter way, and know that their own works will never save them–and yet that works (as we live as Christ has encouraged us–if ye love me keep my commandments) will always be a part of the equation. They are born of faith, they preserve faith, they encourage faith, they accomplish the purposes of God. Was it C.S. Lewis that said something to the effect, regarding faith and works, that they are like the blades of a scissor? Which one does the cutting? James was happy to bind the two together. Just because some Mormons misunderstand the relationship doesn’t negate the relationship. And apparently Christians must still believe (an act, a work) for grace to save them. So, Mormons that feel condemned by the LDS Church certainly need more faith in Christ (and if they need to leave the church to find it, God bless them to do it). But this Mormon will declare that Latter-day Saint teachings do not discount the grace of God. Three verses after the one mentioned above (where works are referring to the ‘works’ of the law of Moses) Nephi declares: “we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ…that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.”
May 20, 2008 at 11:53 am |
Thanks for the comment, Kent.
To avoid the risk of “misreading/misquoting/misinterpreting”, I’ll just include this quote as-is from LDS Prophet Brigham Young from the Journal of Discourses, Volume 14, Page 134:
“Will everybody be damned except the Latter-day Saints?” “Yes,” said Joseph, “and many of them, unless they take a different course from what they are now taking.” Who will be saved in the celestial kingdom, and go into the presence of the Father and Son? Those only who observe the whole law, who keep the commandments of God—those who walk in newness of life, observe all his precepts and do his will.”
It is also interesting to look at the Index of Articles that is included at the end of each year in the Ensign Magazine. (The Ensign is the vehicle the church uses to distribute the teachings of the church leaders – often times put on par with scripture – to the LDS church membership). In all of 2008, you will find no reference to any article on grace. In years previous, only scant cross-references to articles primarily on other subjects.
Instead, LDS history is full of quotations like the following from the prophet Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, Volume 9, Page 312:
This generation, however, is not left without a test. I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is of God; and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ. All who confess that Joseph Smith is sent of God in the latter days, to lay the foundation of his everlasting kingdom no more to be thrown down, and will continue to keep his commandments, are born of God. All those who believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths that Joseph Smith is a true Prophet, at the same time trying with their might to live the holy principles Joseph the Prophet has revealed, are in possession of the Holy Spirit of God and are entitled to a fullness.
If, as you said, “some Mormons misunderstand the relationship” between God’s saving grace and our own works, it seems you’d have to include Brigham Young in that group as well.
May 20, 2008 at 9:58 pm |
Would be fun to read quotations from Christian history. I’m sure there aren’t any referencing any thing that could remotely be considered work (since all Christians have always agreed so perfectly about grace, well at least from the time Paul explained it to the Corinthians). But make Joseph and Brigham offenders for a word (or a Journal of Discourses full of words) if it will help. It won’t change the fact that they (and plenty of Mormons) know who their Savior is and spent their life in His work. Imperfectly, of course, but I guess their position means we’re free to cast stones (and pick and chose which of their words we’ll pick on, and which we’ll ignore). God will be their judge and ours, and I guess we can take comfort that we’ll receive the mercy we’re willing to give. Or wait, is that a work? (Matt 23:23)
It used to bother me that as Mormons we truly did over emphasize work. But look up “work” in the scriptures. It is grace that will save us, but there is work enough to do, and God is looking for those who will do it. And not a few of those He’s found are found with the Mormons. If Mormonism keeps you from coming to Christ, then get out and find Him. That still won’t change the fact that others found Christ (or are in the process of finding Him) in Mormonism. It’s possible to spend a life tearing down Brigham Young or Mormonism, but if so, hopefully that is truly the work one is called to do. In the meantime, plenty of Mormons and Christians will be doing God’s work, at times side by side, and rejoicing in God’s saving grace.
May 20, 2008 at 11:04 pm |
The difference is this:
Mormonism has placed their prophets in the position of speaking the words of God. For that reason their words, while speaking as prophets, must be considered LDS doctrine. If they turned out to be wrong, they would by definition have to be false prophets. I can’t see any middle ground there. You will absolutely find outlandish things that Christian leaders have said throughout history — sometimes incredibly heretical things. But we, as Biblical Christians, are under no obligation to accept anything they say as more authoritative than the Bible.
Part of the issue here may be that we are talking past each other. In the Christian sense, there is only one salvation… the salvation of a soul to eternal heaven with God. In the Mormon sense there seem to be many types of salvation. There is a salvation that simply means all men will be resurrected because of Christ’s resurrection. There is salvation that means an attainment of any of the degrees of glory. And there is salvation that means an attainment of the highest level of glory, the Celestial. Since it is only in this highest level where a soul dwells with God, that is the comparable salvation I am talking about. Is that Celestial salvation truly by grace through faith alone — a 100% faith in Jesus? By adding the requirement for a soul to do works (baptism, temple endowments, eternal marriage, tithing) it cannot be 100% faith in Jesus. If a person has 100% faith in Jesus for salvation, but does not ever get baptized, will that person live with God in heaven? According to LDS doctrine, the answer has to be no. He must do many similar works to earn it (or have those works performed for him).
It is the Biblical Christian belief that, once a person has that 100% faith in Jesus, they become a new creation in Christ and their nature is changed to one that desires to do good works… not for the achievement of glory or salvation for themselves, but for the glory of God. They still sin, they still fail, they still fall, but they continue to work for God’s glory. Their works are the fruit that testifies that they have been saved, not their means to salvation. If there is true salvation, there will be good works. Of course the Bible would talk at length about both.
I’m surprised you accuse me of devoting my life to “tearing down Brigham Young or Mormonism”. All I have done is share a common feeling among those who are struggling to live the LDS religion and some proven historical quotations from an LDS prophet. Do you see full-time LDS church missionaries as devoting their lives to “tearing down Christianity” or are they just proclaiming truth as they believe it? The LDS church was founded by a young boy claiming that all other religions were wrong. He didn’t seem too concerned with holding hands with Christians to do God’s work “side by side, and rejoicing in God’s saving grace.”
If Mormons have the right to try to prove Christian belief in error, why are Christians who exercise that same right towards Mormonism labeled anti-Mormon?
May 25, 2008 at 7:55 am |
I think “talking past each other” is fairly classic religious discussion. Seems almost impossible not to. As for the accusation, it was not meant as an accusation, but more of a challenge for self-examination–I’m in no position to judge what you’re devoting your life to. And as for Mormon rights to prove Christian errors, or Christians being labeled anti-Mormon for pointing out Mormon errors, my quandry is this:
Some Christians are upset that Mormons try to prove their beliefs are in error. They indicate that this is offensive. Then when Mormons get offended by the same behavior toward Mormonism, Christians claim, hey!, they should have the same right as Mormons (ie. you Mormons are offensive to us, so don’t whine when we’re offensive to you–we’re just giving you a taste of your own medicine.) That we Mormons don’t practice our own Article of Faith 11 very well, seems like a poor excuse for Christians to not practice what Jesus taught (love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.) If Christians, with 100% faith in Jesus, really have a new nature, then please show that nature. It often seems (and this is a judgment) that those bad qualities Mormons are accused of (“we’re right, you’re wrong”) become even more pronounced in the post-Mormon (“I thought I was right then, but I’m really, really right now.”)
So, that you have the right to prove Mormon belief is in error can not be questioned. That you would claim that right based on Mormons’ bad behavior problematic. I just have a hard time believing that the best way to minister to those struggling with the burdens of Mormonism is to spend time showing that, “see, here is another classic example of why Mormons are so deceived.” Maybe it is though. Again, I don’t know what God has called you to do. But this Mormon, with I’m sure something less than 100% faith in Jesus (and yes, I pray that God will help my unbelief when it finds its way in) does declare that “it is by grace that we are saved” and “it is the gift of God”. You are a friend, you have found Christ, in that we should rejoice. It seems a shame that you might spend more time studying Mormonism after leaving the church, and frame all of your bible study in the context of it’s perspective on Mormonism. That we will all have, usually differing, opinions on such matters is so obvious. That it detracts from rejoicing in, and living like the Saviour, seems obvious as well. But that’s only my opinion. This Mormon considers you a brother in Christ, and hopes to find opportunity to work “side by side…rejoicing in God’s saving grace.”
May 25, 2008 at 10:13 am |
Kent,
I realized after my last post that I had made it sound like Christians must have a 100% faith before they are saved and made a new creation. What I meant instead is that Christians must have their faith 100% centered on Jesus Christ, even if it is less than a complete faith (which is obviously the case for all of us). There’s obviously a big difference between the two. :)
I assure you that my Bible study time is not completely focused on issues surrounding Mormonism. That is only a fraction of the time I spend in God’s word, but it seems the especially applicable study to have available on LifeAfterJoseph.org.
I consider you a friend as well, and appreciate that you are one of a very few Latter-day Saints that have been bold enough to look at more than just the faith-promoting view of the LDS church, and yet keep your faith intact.
May 25, 2008 at 7:21 pm |
Thank you for clarifying the 100% faith thing, because it seemed about as unreachable as “all you can do.” I believe that a full inspection of Mormonism would show that Mormons must also “have their faith 100% centered on Jesus Christ,” for their “works” to mean anything at all.
I’m also confident I’m not alone in examining “more than just the faith-promoting view of the LDS church” and remaining a believer in its tenets. If Mormonism doesn’t bring one closer to Christ, and increase faith in His saving grace, then that person should surely find the path that does. But imperfect prophets or misapplied or misunderstood doctrines aside, Mormonism affirms that we must “trust in his redeeming love.”
Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”.
That there are appendages galore I would not deny. That those appendages help some and hinder others I would also not deny. But you can’t take Christ out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. LDS tenets, without faith in Christ, may produce some temporary good results, may even lay a foundation where one can come to have faith in Christ–but they will never save. The first principle of the gospel (LDS Article of Faith 4) is faith in Jesus Christ. Repentance, baptism, laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the priesthood, temples, or any other “appendage” mean nothing without the first, faith in Jesus Christ. I find Christ irreplaceably at the center of Mormon doctrine.
That Mormons and Christians will find endless opportunity for argument over tenets, doctrines, the necessity of works in relation to faith, and even who is more right (something Mormons like to claim, and post-Mormons also like to claim), it seems that C. S. Lewis (perhaps the non-Mormon most quoted by Mormons) observed correctly: “It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men’s hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense . . . When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.” That Mormons and Christians could view each other in this Spirit would truly be a blessing.
June 28, 2009 at 6:39 am |
“Talking past each other?” No kidding. We (Mormons and Christians) are really SO close on this issue; it seems to me that we essentially look at it the same way. Of course I know my works won’t save me; not one bit. Only God’s grace – only the redeeming blood of my Savior – can do that. You say my works are a manifestation of my faith, the “good fruits” which show up after I’ve given my heart to God. I agree. If my works are because I think I’m somehow chalking up points for myself on some big tally board in heaven, I’m deceived.
Still, if I am a true believer, the good works will certainly follow. Specific good works. As you said – “temples, ordinances, obedience, priesthood, eternal marriages, baptism, missions, callings, repentance, and endowments” – plus a lot of other things, of course. If these works aren’t present, either I’m ignorant of their importance or deceived into thinking that I can somehow be a true believer without them. Do they save me? Of course not. Only Jesus can do that. One hundred percent. But am I a true believer? If I know what Jesus wants me to do but consistently choose not to do it, can I say I’ve really given my heart to him? Because he obviously isn’t going to save everyone; only those who truly believe. Am I among them? If I am, surely my works will show it.
The debate is not over whether my works will save me; they won’t. The debate instead is over what exactly those works, which follow those who believe, are. You sound ready to reject all of the “Mormonism” ones (which you listed above), yet most of them show up throughout the bible. What’s up with that?
June 29, 2009 at 7:52 pm |
While I would love to be able to agree with you and say that LDS theology and traditionally Christian theology are very close on this issue, I just can’t. But I know where you are coming from. I believed the same thing while I was LDS.
I’ve tried to illustrate the difference many times before, and will try again now, but it is with the understanding that some things must simply be experienced rather than explained in order to be understood.
I think I can best show the difference by asking a few questions, but I first must define a term, if only so that we are not talking past each other when using it. To a Christian, salvation means living for eternity with God in heaven. In LDS theology, this is most similar to the Celestial Kingdom, the only of the levels of heaven where one dwells with God. With that understanding, here goes… a few examples…
According to LDS theology, can a person be saved (achieve the Celestial Kingdom) without being baptized (or accepting that work done for them by proxy?)
According to LDS theology, can a person be saved without having their temple endowments performed?
According to LDS theology, can a person be saved without having been sealed to a spouse in the temple?
The answer, as I think you must admit, is “No” to all of these questions. In this sense, works are required to save in LDS theology. Even if you say it is only your faith in Jesus that drives you to do these works, without the works it is still impossible to achieve salvation. By definition it therefore cannot be 100% faith in Jesus that saves you. It is only mental gymnastics that can call required works a gift of grace. Grace is unmerited (unearned) favor, and the Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by grace through faith.
You mention that most of the works I listed also show up in the Bible, but you feel that I am rejecting them. The ones that are Biblical (which are quite few, rather than “most”) are certainly works. But just because they are works we SHOULD be involved in does not make them works we MUST be involved in for salvation.
I think Jesus is teaching us a lesson on this very thing when He heals the ten lepers. Of the ten, all of which were “saved” from leprosy, only one of them does the “work” of coming back to thank Him. The unthankful lepers remained “saved” from their disease by their faith in Jesus and His grace in healing them, but they make the choice not to do the “work” that would have been expected of them. I think we see this very picture evidenced in the Christian world today… a great many who may indeed be saved, but only a few who have chosen to go on and do the works that God has for them to do.
I think we must also be careful when looking at a person’s works in an effort to determine whether they are saved or not. It is a clue, certainly, but there is so much more to consider. Many very good works can be done from a selfish motivation. Many bad works can be done from a misplaced pure motivation. Also, a person who claims to be a Christian but seems to be a very bad person may in fact be a much improved person from who they used to be in years past. One person’s evidentiary works may be starting a homeless shelter while another’s may be the reduction in the number of times he is abusive to his wife. We are all works-in-progress. It is all relative and can only be judged by God. God tells us that some of the works we are so convinced are good will ultimately be judged to be worthless…
2 Cor 3:12-13 – Now if anyone builds on this foundation [with] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
June 29, 2009 at 10:01 pm |
I totally agree with your last two paragraphs, Brad. And your use of the ten lepers is compelling; I had not thought of it that way before. Of course, the story ends at Jesus telling the Samaritan stranger that his faith had made him whole. It’s possible (pure speculation) that the other nine weren’t permanently cured. Who knows? Anyway, your point is well made.
To the three questions you pose, the answer is definitely no, as you say. But I still stubbornly insist that you and I are closer than you might think on this. Works can be done for the wrong reason, or can even be worthless, as you say. But I know you also agree that faith without works is not really faith. So maybe you don’t agree that baptism and temple ordinances are the works which should accompany one’s faith, but there must be SOME works, right?
If a person says he believes in Jesus and asks for salvation but absolutely does not mean, in his heart, what his lips are saying, is he still saved? Surely not? He’s not a true believer, right?
I think maybe the biggest difference in our viewpoints is that you see the Lord as saving anyone and everyone who has even a moment of belief. Maybe one time in a person’s life when he actually has a little faith, he accepts Jesus as his personal savior, even if before and after he never has faith again and never acts on his belief. To me, this would not constitute true belief, and this person would not gain salvation, as you defined it above. I’m thinking that, to you, he still would, right?